JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
Thousands of people from around the world are filing into St. Peter's Basilica in Rome to view the body of Pope Francis as he lies in state. As tributes to the pope pour in, there is renewed focus on his willingness to enter the political arena. He was outspoken on almost every modern issue facing the world - from social justice to the treatment of migrants to global climate change. For many, he was a symbol of change, but he was also criticized for not taking enough action to address the issues of marginalized groups within the Catholic Church. To talk about the legacy of Pope Francis, we called up Anthea Butler, who is the Geraldine R. Segal professor of American social thought at the University of Pennsylvania. Welcome back to the program.
ANTHEA BUTLER: Thank you so much for having me.
SUMMERS: You know, for so many people, I think that Pope Francis' presence signaled the possibility for change and progress for the Catholic Church, which is, of course, a centuries-old institution. I wonder if you can give us an example or two of communities that advocated for change, and what they were hoping to see from Francis that perhaps will endure beyond his years.
BUTLER: Sure. I mean, I think, first I - you know, obviously I think about the LGBTQ community, and I think of somebody like Father James Martin, who worked with Pope Francis a lot and has worked with these communities and has a ministry that, you know, deeply involves Catholics who are gay or lesbian, right? And I think that for - one of the things that they really wanted from Francis was to see progress. And one of those moments of progress was advocating for same-sex blessings, which caused an uproar in other parts of the church and the world - right? - because people were like, oh, you can't do this, you can't do this - whatever. But, you know, the reality was that people were doing those things a lot on the sly, anyway. And so what Francis did was recognize what the pastoral care part was. It's not a marriage; it was a blessing. And, you know, even a blessing for some portions of the church would see that as anathema to Catholic teaching. So I think that's one thing.
SUMMERS: The Catholic Church has historically had a complicated history when it comes to addressing racism. And Pope Francis was someone who we saw visibly work to promote inclusivity, to show that the church was a place that had space for everyone. I mean, I personally remember back in 2020 after the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis when Pope Francis came out and prayed for him and made the point that Catholics can't tolerate racism and, in the same breath, claim to defend the sacredness of every human life. And still, some Black Catholics have said that they felt left out, that they wanted to see more. I'd love to ask you, what do you think that Pope Francis' legacy will be specifically among Black Catholics?
BUTLER: I mean, I think for the most part, Black Catholics are going to see him as a transformational pope in the sense that they felt seen. This was a pope that actually visited, you know, Africa 10 times - you know, different countries, different ways of dealing with the African continent. If we think about racism in terms of the way that we think about American racism, it might not be apparent, and it might not be the thing that, you know, Black Catholics in America would have hoped for. But what I do think is very important is his openness to the African diaspora. And I think that's key. The things that he did, you know, the cardinals he appointed - you know, it's very important to see that he appointed somebody in the Caribbean - I think those things are the things that will stand.
Can he deal with the kind of racism that we have here in America, with American Catholics? And I need to say that upfront because it's very important to say that we don't have a great situation in terms of race and racism in the Catholic Church here in America. It will take something different for a pope - the next pope - to step into and speak into, but I think Francis spoke into it as much as he could.
SUMMERS: Cardinals are converging on Rome to pick the next pope, though we'll note that the process has not yet begun. I wonder - for you personally, do you go into the conclave with more hope or more apprehension in terms of who the next pope might be and the direction in which that person might take the church?
BUTLER: I'd have to say, maybe it's more hope than apprehension. I mean, you know, there's this whole thing about, oh, you know, it's going to be conservative, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, we have to remember that Pope Francis installed over a hundred of these cardinals, right? And there's very few people that are left from, you know, John Paul II or Pope Benedict, right? So I think in that, what we have to see is that this church has changed. This is a global church. And it always has been a global church.
The problem is, is that most of the time when cardinals were picked, they used to come from, you know, Italy or Europe or something like that. And so Francis was different in two ways. He came from Latin America, and he was a Jesuit, which, you know, is an order that does not have ecclesiastical dignities. In other words, they don't, you know, ascribe to be bishops or cardinals or anything like that. So I think that this may just be a different one. And this is kind of open to conjecture. I don't - you know, I see all the people now taking (ph) their list up, but, you know, it might not be somebody we expect.
SUMMERS: That's Anthea Butler, the Geraldine R. Segal professor of American social thought at the University of Pennsylvania. Thank you so much.
BUTLER: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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