MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
For more on the implications of Viktor Orban's election loss, I'm joined by David Pressman. He was the U.S. ambassador to Hungary under President Biden and is now a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress. That's a nonpartisan progressive think tank.
Good morning, Ambassador. Thank you so much for joining us.
DAVID PRESSMAN: Good morning. Pleasure to be here.
MARTIN: So over the 16 years he's been in power, Viktor Orban was the inspiration for rightist populist movements around the world. I think many people might remember that conservative figures from the U.S. made many pilgrimages to Hungary in recent years. What do you think was the biggest factor behind Orban's defeat at home?
PRESSMAN: Look, at a certain point, the posters of George Soros and Volodymyr Zelenskyy and conspiracies about foreign money and attacks on the U.S. ambassador and demonization of Brussels - they ceased to explain why Hungary's schools are failing, why its hospitals are crumbling, why it has become the poorest country in the European Union. And Viktor Orban maintained a sophisticated propaganda apparatus to reframe what were ultimately not policy failures, really, at all, but the entirely predictable results of a system that was designed to enrich his cronies. And there's only so much propaganda can do when a citizen can't get medical care in a hospital but knows, you know, their prime minister has exotic animals roaming a palatial countryside estate.
MARTIN: So are there lessons that other opponents of authoritarian figures could learn from Peter Magyar's victory?
PRESSMAN: Absolutely. I mean, look. Before - Magyar had one message, and his message was about corruption. And, you know, it's interesting. Before I deployed to Hungary, every sophisticated foreign policy expert and many Hungarian politicians told me the same thing. They told me that Hungarians don't care about corruption. They're used to it. Their government was corrupt under the Communists. It was corrupt after 1989. It's corrupt now. So what's new?
But they were wrong. I mean, Magyar spoke of almost nothing but corruption. And in doing so, he built community with rural voters who were thought to be unreachable by a anti-Orban, anti-Fidesz base. And so I think one of the lessons learned is that you have to be prepared to fight. You have to be prepared to meet the bluster of the authoritarian or the strongman with a bluster of your own that's designed to be heard, and you have to be prepared to go places that you're told are off limits.
I mean, Michel, I was always struck when I was ambassador and I traveled to the countryside, where I was told this was Viktor Orban's core base. I was always waiting, sort of, to be pelted with eggs or something, but I never was. I was actually met with Hungarians who were really keen to be engaged and had questions, and those questions were infused with government propaganda. And I think what Magyar did - and I think one of the lessons to be learned - is that part of the exercise of combating strongmen and authoritarianism is really building community, including building community with people you're told are unreachable.
MARTIN: Interesting. Speaking of people who kind of travel and try to build relationships, President Trump endorsed Orban. Vice President JD Vance even traveled to Hungary to appear at a rally for Orban. Why do you think that didn't help?
PRESSMAN: Well, because it was entirely about Donald Trump's own personal interest in rewarding loyalists and Viktor Orban's personal interest in maintaining power. I mean, Orban, while I was ambassador, identified the United States of America as one of Hungary's, in his words, top three adversaries. So Trump's endorsement of Orban had nothing to do with the interests of the United States of America and only had to do with Trump's personal interest in rewarding loyalists. So, you know, I think that the limits of Trump's ability to influence this election were rooted fundamentally in the fact that Hungarians were seeing the cost of corruption in their daily lives. And they saw Trump not as a obstacle to it, but actually a proponent of it.
MARTIN: David Pressman served as U.S. ambassador to Hungary until 2025. He's now a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress. Ambassador, thank you so much.
PRESSMAN: Thank you, Michel. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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